RMMV Oceanic - The Ultimate White Star Liner

[Oceanic]

Commissioned to fight the growing threat of the French Line's "Normandie" and Cunard's Hull 534, later to be known as "Queen Mary", Oceanic was too be the largest, fastest and most luxurious ocean liner ever built. Planned to be powered by four "Cathedral Style" diesel engines Oceanic was set to claim the prestigious Blue Ribband, this coupled with White Star's ever famous interiors would have made her a formidable force on the North Atlantic run, but sadly this was never to be. During the 30's, and Oceanic's construction, the Great Depression hit, causing the mighty White Star Liner's recently laid keel to be broken up to be used to build two motorships of a similar if far smaller design, MV Britannic and MV Georgic which were deemed to be more "economical" in the difficult times that followed.

I would love to hear your opinions on this mighty Liner and any details you may have of her construction and planned operation would be greatly appreciated as I have spent many years studying her.

-Oceanic   

[Oceanic]

Side Note: Oceanic would also have been the only quadruple motorship in existence

[Oceanic]

And a interesting discussion on her claiming the Blue Ribband:
 
 https://www.encyclopedia-titanica.org/community/threads/could-rmmv-oceanic-iii-have-won-the-blue-riband.31278/

[Bob van Leeuwen]

I do sometimes wonder if they had changed the hull design from the Olympic class days to a more modern design, such as the Normandie had. Giving the Normandie the hull the Queen Mary engines would have been like what Oceanic was to be.

[Oceanic]

I do sometimes wonder if they had changed the hull design from the Olympic class days to a more modern design, such as the Normandie had. Giving the Normandie the hull the Queen Mary engines would have been like what Oceanic was to be.

Indeed Oceanic would have been the best of Normandie and QM, many people, including me, believe Oceanic could have saved WSL, the public would have flocked to her as Britons newest flagship and the profits that followed may have helped White Star over the 30's, due to the increase in Tonnage she provided it is highly likely that WSL would have had held the majority in the merger, and it would be Cunard who would have faded; Shame she was never completed. 

[Peter Mugridge]

May I just ask, because I am slightly puzzled, why "RMMV" when a Royal Mail steam powered ship is RMS rather than RMSS?  Wouldn't the hypothetical Oceanic still have been "RMS"?  Royal Mail Ship?  Regardless of the propulsion method?

[Oceanic]

May I just ask, because I am slightly puzzled, why "RMMV" when a Royal Mail steam powered ship is RMS rather than RMSS?  Wouldn't the hypothetical Oceanic still have been "RMS"?  Royal Mail Ship?  Regardless of the propulsion method?

Very good question Peter! Nowadays the RMS tag is bestowed apon any ship used to transport Royal Mail but back in the 20's and 30's Royal Mail decided to separate the tags depending on the ships propulsion, this practice has been dropped today thus why ships like QM2 carry "RMS" instead of "RMMV." As to why it isn't RMSS... That's anyone's guess! 

[Greg Rudd]

More to the point the "Cathedral Diesel Engines" with mechanical drive was H&W's suggestion. IIRC White Star wanted to go Diesel Electric with 40 prime movers  driving 4 screws. If built in this combo she would have been a masterpiece emulating the QE2 post 1987 50-60 years earlier.

[Chris Thompson]

I'm curious as to what levels of noise and vibration would result from 40 Diesels? Maintenence would be a nightmare!!!!

[Oceanic]

I'm curious as to what levels of noise and vibration would result from 40 Diesels? Maintenence would be a nightmare!!!!

Both MV Britannic and MV Georgic both suffered vibration early in their service lives, so scaled up to Oceanic size the problems would have increased aswell, most likely after some fine tuning they would have tamed the vibrations.

More to the point the "Cathedral Diesel Engines" with mechanical drive was H&W's suggestion. IIRC White Star wanted to go Diesel Electric with 40 prime movers  driving 4 screws. If built in this combo she would have been a masterpiece emulating the QE2 post 1987 50-60 years earlier.

This just shows how advanced Oceanic was! If built she would have dominated the North Atlantic, makes you wonder whether QM would have stood a chance. 

[Greg Rudd]

I'm curious as to what levels of noise and vibration would result from 40 Diesels? Maintenence would be a nightmare!!!!

Depending upon the motor used the vibration of a diesel electric would probably be less than the large "Cathedral" diesels that H&W proposed. The trick with vibration in engines is in the balancing and propeller design. Remember the expansion engines used in the Olympic class were smoother than the turbines on the Maurie/Lusintania. But they were the pinnacle of what was becoming a technological dead end when they were built. 
 
I suspect that in that period it would have been easier with a diesel electric as you could effectively run the diesels as fixed RPM engines. If she was built as an diesel electric I suspect she would have used DC and her control system would have been a scaled up version of what was being used in DC electric locomotives of the period with the usual motor groupings of "Series,Series-Parallel,Parallel,Weak field" coupled with individual resistance control for each motor when in port.

[Greg Rudd]

Both MV Britannic and MV Georgic both suffered vibration early in their service lives, so scaled up to Oceanic size the problems would have increased aswell, most likely after some fine tuning they would have tamed the vibrations. This just shows how advanced Oceanic was! If built she would have dominated the North Atlantic, makes you wonder whether QM would have stood a chance.

My summation is that the Oceanic even if built with the "Cathedral Diesel engines" would have been a far cheaper ship to operate than either of the 2 Queens and the Normandie while offering 85% of the performance. That was the thinking behind the Olympic class compared to the Maurie/Lusintania. So if built she would have turned White Star around, as she would have been a more profitable ship than the Queens to operate.

Remember what has been driving the design of the mega cruse ship since the late 80's has been the desire to reduce the "cost per passenger". I always wonder if P&O ever thought of re-engining the Canberra. Although P&O was a much more "British" company in it's mindset than what Cunard ever was.  The Canberra never got the TLC that the QE2 got during her life.

[Oceanic]

My summation is that the Oceanic even if built with the "Cathedral Diesel engines" would have been a far cheaper ship to operate than either of the 2 Queens and the Normandie while offering 85% of the performance. That was the thinking behind the Olympic class compared to the Maurie/Lusintania. So if built she would have turned White Star around, as she would have been a more profitable ship than the Queens to operate.

Remember what has been driving the design of the mega cruse ship since the late 80's has been the desire to reduce the "cost per passenger". I always wonder if P&O ever thought of re-engining the Canberra. Although P&O was a much more "British" company in it's mindset than what Cunard ever was.  The Canberra never got the TLC that the QE2 got during her life.

You hit the nail on the head! While the QM and Normandie were HEAVY on fuel (Largely what lead to QE2) Oceanic would have been very efficient for her day, the fuel savings alone compared to Olympic and Homeric would have been immense! In terms of performance, I have read in multiple places that the ship was capable of outpacing QM and Normandie, I believe they may have planned for an additional engine of some kind along side the Cathedrals, if this HAD gone ahead QM may have been left truly struggling in the 30's and onwards! Furthermore if they went for WSL initial proposal of a Diesel Electric Power Plant the ship would have broken ground and perhaps would have pushed ship building forward by a good many years. 

[Greg Rudd]

You hit the nail on the head! While the QM and Normandie were HEAVY on fuel (Largely what lead to QE2) Oceanic would have been very efficient for her day, the fuel savings alone compared to Olympic and Homeric would have been immense! In terms of performance, I have read in multiple places that the ship was capable of outpacing QM and Normandie, I believe they may have planned for an additional engine of some kind along side the Cathedrals, if this HAD gone ahead QM may have been left truly struggling in the 30's and onwards! Furthermore if they went for WSL initial proposal of a Diesel Electric Power Plant the ship would have broken ground and perhaps would have pushed ship building forward by a good many years.

Well for her size the MV Britannic III used around half the fuel that other steam ships of her day. In fact I am amazed P&O and Orient lines went for steam in their post war ships of similar size seeing the Britannic has set the performance parameters of ships within the 20-30,000 ton ships.
What strikes me about WSL is that it was the most innovative of the British Lines but it also seemed to be poorly managed and it's Captains seemed to be involved in more accidents than P&O/Orient/Shaw Savil/Union Castle/Cunard's were

[Oceanic]

Well for her size the MV Britannic III used around half the fuel that other steam ships of her day. In fact I am amazed P&O and Orient lines went for steam in their post war ships of similar size seeing the Britannic has set the performance parameters of ships within the 20-30,000 ton ships.
What strikes me about WSL is that it was the most innovative of the British Lines but it also seemed to be poorly managed and it's Captains seemed to be involved in more accidents than P&O/Orient/Shaw Savil/Union Castle/Cunard's were

WSL were defiantly the most innovative of the Atlantic superpowers, they were plagued with bad mangement descisons, one of those being cancelling Oceanic; I truly believe if she was built WSL would still be around today.