Author Topic: QE2 Asbestos and Fireproofing  (Read 53344 times)

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Wegeners

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Re: Marinite asbestos wood composite boards used for shipbuilding
« Reply #30 on: Apr 23, 2012, 02:40 AM »
Thanks for the information. I know that this wood composite board containing asbestos was definitely supplied to Cammell Laird shipbuilders in Liverpool.

Does anyone know of this being linked to illness particularly amongst woodworkers, wood machinists, joiners, carpenters, etc? I would be interested to hear from anyone in the wood trades who has been exposed to these boards and who suffers ill health such as autoimmune diseases or respiratory disease, etc.

Does anyone know exactly what kind of asbestos it contained?

My husband, a wood machinist, worked with this board in the 1970's for a company in Manchester but they were told by management that it contained a 'safe' asbestos, which of course isn't true. Besides cutting it they also laminated it and edged it too. It was used as wall partitioning. They were never given any PPE. Crazy really but when they banned the use of asbestos they substituted it with crystalline silica (they are very similar in qualities), another carcinogen. Besides causing cancers both asbestos and c/silica have been linked to causing certain autoimmune diseases too, also devastating, life threatening and destructive and treated with chemo and the like. We have now both been diagnosed with a rare form of necrotising autoimmune disease and they say we're the only husband and wife couple in the world. Our disease was caused by the exposures to wood dust and silica in the wood dust at work and possibly even the asbestos too. It's crazy as wood dust per se is a classified carcginogen and yet wood machinsts, wood workers, are knowingly allowed to inhale it daily and to bring it home on their clothes, hair and skin to contaminate their homes and expose their loved ones too. They would never allow this if it were asbestos which is also a group 1 carcinogen. Wood dust is reffered to officially as a 'nuisance' dust and a 'safe' level set. How can a proven carcinogen be merely a 'nuisance' dust? I despair. There is no 'safe' level that can be inhaled of any carcinogen so the workplace 'safe' levels of 0.5 are inadequate and fail to protect anyone. I have washed his work clothes for over 30 years. There was a time when they were so full of dust that I had to take them outside to shake of the wood dust/fibres. It would choke me and tasted foul.

Wood composite boards such as MDF/chipboard are made of old waste woods recycled from C&D waste, construction and demolition waste. Old woods from the demolition of old properties and buildings, etc. So hence the real risk that these older building materials such as Marinite, Trunall Asbestos Ships Board, Asbestolux, etc., and also containing woods treated or containing chemicals that were banned years ago because they'd been proven to cause ill health. Therefore if these asbestos boards, which are diificult to tell from any other boards are 'recycled' then asbestos, silica, lead, heavy metals, banned chemicals, pesticides, fungicides, preservatives, etc. will be 'recycled' back in to the chain and emitted as a dust.

 Whilst these boards may be safe in solid form, as a dust they're deadly to those working with them or nearby manufacturing plants. A real ticking time bomb. You only have to look at the internet and see how many residents living near wood waste recycling firms, wood chipping plants and wood composite board manufacturers are all suffering and complaining of the same symptoms from exposure to wood dust from demolition wastes. The dust from the 9/11 atrocities are very similar too and that's why they're experiencing high incidents of cancers and autoimmune diseases since the dust clouds.

If you could see the huge mountains of this wood waste at wood recycling companies (so high the huge earth moving equipment looks like a child's toy sat on top) then you would see the problem is massive. With the new trends for Biomass incinerators springing up all over the UK, this same old recycled wood waste is being used as fuel for Biomass. They use the worst grades for this. When this waste is burned it will emit many of these contaminants back in to air in very fine particules so small you can't see them. As always it's not the dust/particles you can see that do the most damage, it's the ones you can't see that are the most harmful. When inhaled due to their small size often nanoparticle size, then these don't stay in the lungs like the larger size particles, these can pass through vein walls and through the blood brain barrier, so can travel beyond the lungs to affect any part of the body including the brain.

So as you can see the asbestos and Marinite nightmare is not over yet. Instead of it coming to an end there's a chance it's being 'recycled', like that's a good thing.

I'm writing a book about our experiences.

Online Lynda Bradford

Re: Marinite asbestos wood composite boards used for shipbuilding
« Reply #31 on: Apr 23, 2012, 10:19 AM »
Quite a thought provoking post that you have written. 

This paper "Asbestos in Scotland" written by Thomas Gorman, Ronnie Johnston, Arthur McIvor, Andrew Watterson outlines the Asbestos hazzard in Scotland. 
https://dspace.stir.ac.uk/bitstream/1893/602/1/Watterson%20-%20Asbestos%20in%20Scotland.pdf

At the bottom of the paper there are acknowledgement to organisations who provided information.  It may be worthwhile contacting them as they may have already researched the information you are looking for.

"The authors thank the oral history respondents, as well as staff at Clydeside Action on Asbestos, Clydebank Asbestos Group, ISD, and COSLA who provided much of the information on which this paper is based".

Have you also contacted the Westminster and Scottish Parliament to see if they have any research material available?
« Last Edit: Jul 18, 2020, 03:32 PM by Lynda Bradford »
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Offline Twynkle

Re: Marinite asbestos wood composite boards used for shipbuilding
« Reply #32 on: Apr 23, 2012, 10:45 PM »
Hello!
There is more on asbestos and Marinite (on QE2) here
http://discuss.glasgowguide.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=20028&st=60
and the penultimate para here
http://vads.ac.uk/diad/article.php?title=244&year=1969&article=d.244.40

also - might it be worth you looking at websites / literary searches regarding the surveying of ships, and removal of asbestos / Marinite?
I expect that you have already discovered that there's a considerable amount to be found by just inserting 'Marinite use on ships' into google, too

All the very best - and please do keep us posted regarding your quest - as well as the progress of your book.

And, by the way, did you know that there's a special statue on the Clyde dedicated to the workers who have suffered from ill health due to working with asbestos?
« Last Edit: Apr 23, 2012, 10:54 PM by Twynkle »

Wegeners

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Re: Marinite asbestos wood composite boards used for shipbuilding
« Reply #33 on: Apr 24, 2012, 10:14 PM »
Hi

Thanks to everyone for the info and the links. I will also be contacting those mentioned.

regards, Shirley

Wegeners

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Re: Marinite asbestos wood composite boards used for shipbuilding
« Reply #34 on: May 30, 2012, 10:17 PM »
Hi I did email all those mentioned in the document as suggested :

This paper "Asbestos in Scotland" written by Thomas Gorman, Ronnie Johnston, Arthur McIvor, Andrew Watterson outlines the Asbestos hazzard in Scotland. 
https://dspace.stir.ac.uk/bitstream/1893/602/1/Watterson%20-%20Asbestos%20in%20Scotland.pdf

 but none of them replied. Really disappointed but thanks anyway, much appreciated.

James Roy

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Re: Marinite asbestos wood composite boards used for shipbuilding
« Reply #35 on: Feb 06, 2013, 08:15 PM »
I worked from approx 1965 to 1971 for Cape Asbestos, including at its Marinite subsidiary in Springburn, Glasgow.

Marinite was owned in conjunction with Johns-Manville Corporation, of U.S.A.

The main output from Marinite Ltd was asbestos based boards, both for building and for the shipbuilding industry, these boards often being shipped with formica veneers, for cabin walls.

The asbestos used was largely amosite.  Amosite was reckoned to be less dangerous than "blue" asbestos, but health regulations at the plant were strict.  But on occasion the air round the plant was thick with flying fibre.

The marinite product was manufactured either by pressing a slurry mixture in a 2000 t press or latterly, by the Magnani process which was basically a large drum which picked up the asbestos/water/other chemical mix and laid down shallow layers for the product which was dried before use

2.5m sq ft of marinite was shipped to Clydebank for construction of the QE2.  At the time the upper Clyde  shipbuilders were going through a series of financial crises and the shipping of product often depended on the state of the account.

I did use Marinite product in my house, for ceilings in the cellar, but was careful not to saw the boards without a mask.

Anyway, 30+ years later I am still fit.

Eventually Johns-Manville and Cape Asbestos succumbed to the ongoing relevations about the dire effect of asbestos on health, although I don't have the exact date of the Springburn plant closure.

Offline Chris

Re: Marinite asbestos wood composite boards used for shipbuilding
« Reply #36 on: Feb 06, 2013, 11:07 PM »
Asbestos is only dangerous if it us disturbed. Left alone its harmless.
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Re: QE2 Asbestos and Fireproofing
« Reply #37 on: Feb 27, 2013, 09:48 AM »
The Clydebank Asbestos Group commissioned a memorial to be constructed by Tom McKendrick, in memory of the people affected by asbestos. 

This pdf document gives information about the memorial - The Bender - which will be sited at the top of the fitting out basis in the former John Brown's yard in Clydebank. The document also give some interesting information on the work of the frame benders and information on the effects of asbestos on the workforce and their families. 

http://www.tommckendrick.com/pdf/asbestosmona.pdf
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Online Rob Lightbody

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Re: QE2 Asbestos and Fireproofing
« Reply #38 on: Feb 27, 2013, 10:55 AM »
My sister's father in law died of asbestosis (spelling) after working for years in a factory that was handling it... it's nasty if handled incorrectly.

Mostly they just didn't know in those days. By the time of QE2 I believe they knew at least some of the dangers and precautions were taken
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Marinite non-combustible sheet advert
« Reply #39 on: May 05, 2014, 03:08 PM »
Attached advert for the Marinite board used extensively on QE2.

As noted above by James Roy, used correctly it was no risk, and also once on board QE2, if treated carefully (or left alone) its also no risk.

Interesting to note that they have avoided using the word asbestos by the time this advert ran in 1969 in British Marine Progress
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Offline Willum

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Re: QE2 Asbestos and Fireproofing
« Reply #40 on: May 05, 2014, 04:53 PM »
John Chillingworth - former Chief Engineer ran a company called Fibrecheck that used to safely remove Asbestos from ships so he knows a lot about the subject. Marinite was used for deckheads and bulkheads and I for one used to drill it for running cables etc without the risk being appreciated. Marinite was a kind of a sandwich of asbestos between formica. However very many of these panels were cracked, particularly on one occasion in Boston when the temperature dropped to way below zero, the aluminium superstructure contracted and the marinite panels squeezed and BANG they would snap. The lift shafts were lined with a different grade of the stuff but this time the asbestos was not protected by the laminate. 
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Re: QE2 Asbestos and Fireproofing
« Reply #41 on: May 05, 2014, 07:01 PM »
The lift shafts were lined with a different grade of the stuff but this time the asbestos was not protected by the laminate. 

If I am correct the lifts were lined in blue asbestos.
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Offline Hank Hargrove

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Re: Asbestos Removal?
« Reply #42 on: May 07, 2014, 03:42 AM »
Some of it will have been disturbed/removed in 1986/1987 when they rebuilt her engine rooms etc. but the vast majority will still be there.

Asbestos is only a problem if it is disturbed, and turns to dust etc, as long as they left it alone, it didn't matter.

The recent refit of the "Rotterdam" for her static role as a hotel raised the same issues - I believe they removed all her asbestos while also then managing to replace most of her original interiors, presumably with modern fireproofing material.

So removed everything and then reassemble it after the asbestos was removed? I was pretty sure that's what they did...Just checking.
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Offline Hank Hargrove

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Re: QE2 Asbestos and Fireproofing
« Reply #43 on: May 07, 2014, 03:47 AM »
This is unrelated to QE2's asbestos but it reminds me of the ghost town of Wittenoom, Australia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wittenoom,_Western_Australia
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Offline Adam Hodson

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Re: Asbestos Removal?
« Reply #44 on: May 07, 2014, 07:53 AM »
So removed everything and then reassemble it after the asbestos was removed? I was pretty sure that's what they did...Just checking.

Hi Hank. They will have removed all the asbestos from where they could and were working working (the engine room etc.) but the rest of the ship would probably be remained untouched.
"The QE2 is one of the last great transatlantic liners, and arguably the most famous liner in the world"

"QE2 and Concorde, a partnership that lasted almost 30 years... two stunning pieces of engineering, never to be forgotten!"