Ocean liner vs Cruise ship

[Twynkle]

Please can someone help...?

It would be interesting to know about the present day difference between a Ship and a Liner!
Who uses these terms?

Thinking aloud here - (and hoping that a show of ignorance won't be interpreted as stupid!)

Anyone got the answer - or indeed, other questions?

[Andy F]

Rosie

It has always been my understanding at least that the definition of a Liner is a vessel that operates a trans ocean service to a regular schedule, whereas cruise ships (often mistakenly referred to as Cruise Liners), do not.  Such ships are usually faster than their cruise ship counterparts and have additional strengthening to withstand the continual battering they receive from heavy sea states.  Historically, Cunard Queens were classed as Liners as they maintained a regular scheduled transatlantic service, which is still of course true today with QM2 continuing that tradition.  The newer Vista Sistas plus other past Cunarders such as Caronia, Adventurer, Countess etc, are/were not intended to operate in such a way and therefore should be classified as cruise ships. 

[Scott Ebersold]

They are all "ships".

A "liner" is a ship that is built with the intent of service between two set points, " a line", for example: Southampton to New York.  (Interestingly and slightly off topic, buses and trains can provide "liner service" if they service two finite points.)   A "cruise-ship", on the other hand, is a ship this built and designed to float leisurely from one holiday locale to another in relatively calm seas for the purpose of a vacation.

But they are both "ships" - very differently intended ships, but ships.  As well as many other ships!

[Twynkle]

Thank you both Andy and Scott - heart-felted-ly!

So...was  the first RMS Britannia a liner? I would think that 'yes', she was. 
However, the recently retired HMY Britannia wasn't - is this right?

The Titanic was a Liner, wasn't she?

And - then, would old schooners / clippers - (eg ships doing the T/A routes) be classed as Liners?
Did the term Liner come into being before the 'industrialisation' of the New World?

[Andrew Collier]

Well done Rosie, you got it going! the others have done a great job, but after talkin to you last night I just had to add my bit

Cunards first ship, the Britannia would have deffinatly been a liner, although the term had probally not come into use by then.

Further to the earlier answers, which of course are both correct, a Liner doesnt just have to be built for Transatlantic, but any scheduled 'Line' route, The P&O and Orient Line ships that ran to the Far East and Australasia were all liners, the Arcadia (1) that you sailed round Australia on was a true Liner, The Union Castle ships to Africa were Liners, as were anyship designed to give a long (as opposed to short sea where the ship would be refered to as a Ferry or Packet) sea voyage as a method of transport as opposed to a leisure cruise. All very different ships to most Transatlantic Liners due to the different conditions to be experienced on their routes, but true Ocean Liners (Liners) as well.

In short, Liners for Transport, hence why so rare now we have Jet Planes and Cruise ships just for fun. As has already been pointed out a Liner would be built strong enough to cope with virtually any weather and be designed to keep a schedule, whereas a cruise ship is more lightweight (and cheaper) and would generally have to avoid bad weather, the itinery being ammened, and normally sails only in sunny or scenic places! This is why so many are upset with Cunard for naming the Queen Victoria (which is most deffinatly a cruise ship) as a 'Queen' and even more so naming the nearly identical new Queen Elizabeth after the first Queen Elizabeth which was (arguably) the ultimate Liner, using prestigious Liner names on a cruise ship. Obviously whether that annoys you or not is personal opinion!

As for the older ships. Of the Clippers you refer to, although I don't believe the term liner was in use then, (someone prove me wrong?) some were in effect Liners as they ran scheduled voyages between ports carrying passengers and cargo, although in many cases just cargo in which case they would be cargo liners not passenger liners. The ones which carried passengers, would be the forerunners of the liners. Many ships in the days of sail ran less organised schdules, not one distinct lines, but going as and where demand took them. Those ones would not be Liners at all.

Yes, Titanic was a liner, the largest and grandest of its time, and if by 'recently retired Britannia' you mean the former Royal yacht, then no, thats deffinatly not a liner.

Next?! 

[Rob Lightbody]

Well said Andy!

[Twynkle]

Thank you, Andy too! - This is Great.


By 'passengers', you mean any humans I guess, as I was also thinking about shipping slaves and the sugar (etc) trade.
I have a particular interest in the shipping of people as cargo for the production of cargo; 
thankfully this terrible trading has now been totally discredited.
Early shipping insurers in Liverpool came into business to protect both the ships and with cooperation of the banks, the quality of life of the slaves as well. The Liverpool Maritime Museum has made a project out of this subject.
Interesting thinking about the term 'liner', and when it first became commonly used.

So - The QE2 could never ever be anything else but a liner, she belonged to a Line and importantly she sailed across oceans on scheduled routes in scheduled times.

So all Liners are ships, but not all ships are liners - I think!
Ship being a generic term.  ( I'll spare you Q's about boats!!)
 

 
 

[Andrew Collier]

By passengers I mean ones who are there by choice and paying a fare (or having their fare paid for them, as in Australia immigration)

Humans as cargo is different all together, I would never class a slave ship as a liner, unless it had first been a true liner and then converted into service as a slaver.

When I got home from work earlier, I looked up the term Liner in the 'Oxford Companion to Ships and the Sea' and excellent reference to everything its title suggests.
It suggested the term liner was in limited use before, but became popular alongside the introduction of steamships.

Did you see the Wilberforce filum? That was amazing, one of the mosrt moving and significant filums i've ever seen. The LMM project sounds very interesting, if the display is still on, I will make a point of going next time I am in Liverpool.

Cheers 

[Stowaway2k]

They are all "ships".

A "liner" is a ship that is built with the intent of service between two set points, " a line", for example: Southampton to New York.  (Interestingly and slightly off topic, buses and trains can provide "liner service" if they service two finite points.)   A "cruise-ship", on the other hand, is a ship this built and designed to float leisurely from one holiday locale to another in relatively calm seas for the purpose of a vacation.

But they are both "ships" - very differently intended ships, but ships.  As well as many other ships!

Well now wait a sec...   
Wouldn't QE2, and now QM2,  then be classed as "Cruise Liners"... since they were built both to service a line, and to float leisurely from one locale to another....  and actually spend, or spent, more time cruising than lining...   


"Liner" when refering to a ship, is of course an abbreviation of the term "ocean liner".

It would be interesting to know, (and it's probably mentioned in one or another of "The Only Way to Cross" or "The Sway of the Grand Saloon" or "Transatlantic aka Ocean Railway" if I want to do some quick checking) when "ocean liner" replaced "steamship" in the common lexicon.  "Steamship" was still in common use well into the 1960s and possibly later.... such as Cunard being a steamship line, or refering to the Queen Mary as a steamship (or boat) rather than an ocean liner...
I like the old fashioned term of endearment simply "boat", which was a commonly used term by both passengers and crew, now seemingly frowned upon by purists.
Some say that the SS Great Britain was the first "ocean liner", actually the folks who run the SS Great Britain say it 

[Scott Ebersold]

QE2 was purposely built to be "a dual purpose liner" - to do both "liner service" and also be equipted to float leisurely about idyllic islands comfortably.  (They new liner service was fast begin replace by planes and wanted a viable business model.)  It could be said that QM2 was built for similar purposes, in a very different climate.  (Very different climate.  )

But I think we're splitting hairs here ... as everyone has  discussed so eloquently a liner describes a mode of transportation that takes passengers between regularly scheduled points.  There are bus lines, train lines, airlines and ocean lines.  The buses, ships and planes are all liners because of what they do.

An ocean liner isn't defined by its propulsion.  It could be steam driven, diesel-electric, nuclear or whatever.  It doesn't matter.  A liner does a job, by definition.

That said, I do think in a popular context "Ocean Liner" has some romantic connotations connected to the "Golden Age of Ocean Travel" that include glamour, power, human-ingenuity, intrigue, opulence, sophistication, et al.  ... the aura of and "Ocean Liner" (Of which I am an avid fan!)  And although I think those ideas are wrapped up in our collective conscious of what an ocean liner is (and what Cunardival banks on) I don't think they are the characteristics that define a liner, technically.

That said, it would be interesting to know when people started preferring to refer to these ships as Ocean Liners.

... and I like call them boats too! 

[Matt]

Hello once again!

 I could not find anything on this topic, however i may have looked in the wrong place?

I would like to know the difference between an ocean liner hull, the Hull of the QE2 compaired to the Queen Victoria, or a cruise ship Hull. One person on Facebook argues that both ships are 'flat bottomed hull's' however i know there are significant differences between the two. The QE2's hull being alot more rounded than the QV?

Can you please help with this as i am really interested and need evidence that the hull's between QE2 and QV/QE are significantly different, and not as flat at all.

Cheers,
Matt

[Twynkle]

Matt
Here are pictures of QE2's hull when she was being re-painted in Dubai Dry Dock - Summer 2009
https://www.theqe2story.com/forum/index.php/topic,872.0.html
Andy F, Ancoaster78, Rob and / or someone  equally knowledgeable will be technically much more helpful!

(btw - Queen Victoria is a Vista class ship -
her hull is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING like QE2's strong, sleek and beautiful hull!)

[Matt]

(btw - Queen Victoria is a Vista class ship -
her hull is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING like QE2's strong, sleek and beautiful hull!)

Exactly my point Rosie, however another bloke reckons that Ocean liner hull's and cruise ship hull's are very similar and both are classed as 'flat bottomed', however i know this is not the case.

Further help from other members would also be appretiated!

Cheers.

[Mr B]

What a right load of waffle bobbing around here about shapes of hulls.

QE2's hull is a U-shaped flat bottom hull not dissimilar to the bathtub apartment blocks wallowing about the oceans nowadays.

BUT, the significant difference is the rapid change in frame profiles to a very pronounced V shape towards her bow, and to some small degree her stern. She does NOT have what may be variously described as a 'V-shaped hull'. That is utter rubbish. Such hull profiles are the preserve of yesteryear and today's small craft like yachts.

QE2's hull is exceptionally streamlined from bow to stern, a stunning piece of design by her naval architect.  But she still bares the same flat bottom through her central frames just like the cruise ship barge hulls designed for maximum displacement due to their hideously and dangerously high centre of gravity.


Who is it on here that has a copy of her plans ?, ...let's show everyone what her hull profile is like and stop all this jibberish nonsense.

[Matt]

What a right load of waffle bobbing around here about shapes of hulls.

QE2's hull is a U-shaped flat bottom hull not dissimilar to the bathtub apartment blocks wallowing about the oceans nowadays.

BUT, the significant difference is the rapid change in frame profiles to a very pronounced V shape towards her bow, and to some small degree her stern. She does NOT have what may be variously described as a 'V-shaped hull'. That is utter rubbish. Such hull profiles are the preserve of yesteryear and today's small craft like yachts.

QE2's hull is exceptionally streamlined from bow to stern, a stunning piece of design by her naval architect.  But she still bares the same flat bottom through her central frames just like the cruise ship barge hulls designed for maximum displacement due to their hideously and dangerously high centre of gravity.


Who is it on here that has a copy of her plans ?, ...let's show everyone what her hull profile is like and stop all this jibberish nonsense.

Thanks